Transcript: Ashley Smith on the Proof Gap, Invisible Experts and Minimum Viable Proof (DissedMedia: A Startup Story)

Ashley Smith joined host Ben Olmos for episode 80 of DissedMedia: A Startup Story. Their conversation explored why experienced professionals often become invisible online, how AI search is changing professional discovery, and how a focused body of evidence can help close the gap between real-world expertise and digital perception.

The interview was published under different titles in its audio and video editions:

All three editions contain the same core conversation.

Read the companion article and key takeaways →

Podcast: DissedMedia: A Startup Story
Host: Ben Olmos
Guest: Ashley Smith
Episode: 80
Published: June 26, 2026
Length: 1 hour, 14 seconds

Some of the most knowledgeable professionals in their fields are nearly impossible to find online. In this episode of DissedMedia: A Startup Story, host Ben Olmos sits down with Ashley Smith, a former realtor of 18 years turned personal branding strategist who studies what she calls the proof gap, the distance between what you know and what shows up when someone searches for you.

Ashley explains why AI search is rewriting how people discover professionals, why Google is overhauling search for the first real time in 25 years, and how she got her own expertise indexed on Google in just three days using podcasting and an RSS feed. She shares the concept of minimum viable proof, a practical 90 day sprint for building presence, and why being referenced by others may carry far more weight than posting on your own.

If you are a mid-career professional, an entrepreneur, or an emerging expert who wants to get discovered for what you actually know, this conversation gives you a clear place to start.

In this episode:

This transcript was prepared from automatically generated captions and edited for publication. Filler words, repetitions and abandoned starts have been removed where they did not affect meaning, and some conversational repetition has been condensed. Speaker names, punctuation and obvious caption errors—including the incorrect transcription of the show’s name—have been corrected. The sequence, substance and distinct voices have been preserved.

Chapter timestamps correspond to the YouTube video interview and may vary slightly on the audio editions.

Ben Olmos: Welcome back, everybody, to DissedMedia: A Startup Story, the podcast where we take you behind the scenes of starting a business from the ground up.

For many of you who have followed what DissedMedia has been doing—or what I have been doing through my own social media—you know one reason I started it was as an experiment. What if we began with no followers and built something from the ground up just to see what happened?

But there was another reason. I have spent more than 25 years in my career, and many colleagues and people I have connected with are moving into a second chapter. These are smart people I respect. Maybe they were laid off, maybe they have gone as far as they wanted down one path, or maybe they want to pivot into something different. In many ways, they are starting again.

Some of the most knowledgeable people in their industries are nearly invisible. They have decades of experience, knowledge and wisdom to share, but how do they find a platform and become seen?

Ben Olmos: Our guest today helps people address that challenge through something she calls the Proof Gap. I want to welcome Ashley Smith. Ashley, how are you?

Ashley Smith: I’m great, Ben. Thank you so much for having me.

Ben Olmos: Thank you for joining me. I’m very interested in this conversation. I have been watching some of your work on YouTube. One video that caught my attention explained how your ideas were indexed by Google in about three days. That is powerful. How did you achieve that, and how did you arrive at your understanding of the Proof Gap and professionals’ need to think about it?

Ashley Smith: I’ll answer the indexing question, but first I’ll explain what led me here because it echoes what you said about the mid-career professional trying to determine what comes next.

I am one of those people. My background is in real estate. I was a REALTOR® for 18 years and deeply engaged in my business. I had a successful career, but after having my son and dealing with some health issues in my family, I had to rethink what I was going to do.

After all those years as an entrepreneur, I realized I had not been deliberate about showing the skills I had developed. How would those skills translate? How was I perceived? How did I show up outside the context in which people already knew me? I went through an identity crisis and eventually emerged on the other side.

Most of this work, however, also comes from what I witnessed in real estate. It is a traditional sector. Much of the business continues to be conducted the way it always has, although I do not expect that to continue in the near future.

I sat on industry boards for 15 years and chaired an organization representing more than 14,000 professionals. I got to know many elite leaders in the business across Canada and, to some extent, the United States.

The people with the most success, the greatest depth and the strongest understanding of nuance were often the least visible. In high-trust, relationship-driven businesses, they had not needed to worry about an online presence.

Social media emerged near the beginning of my career. I entered real estate in January 2008—an interesting time in the economy and the market. I leaned into Facebook and Twitter because I saw their value and had very little money. Social media was something I could use to become visible. I did not have much of a strategy, but I made it work.

I also attended many conferences, panels and workshops where established professionals learned about marketing and social media. They understood the premise, then walked away saying, “I don’t need to do that,” “I don’t know how,” or “I don’t want to.”

Over time, I saw how the lack of a meaningful online presence began to affect lead generation and even trust.

Because of my experience in real estate, people frequently ask me to refer someone in another city. I know and trust many excellent professionals. But when I search for their contact information or website, I sometimes feel sheepish about making the referral. They do not appear online as the experts I know them to be.

From the recipient’s perspective, I might have passed along someone who could have been anybody. The person does not appear to address the client’s particular circumstances or demonstrate the specific expertise they need.

My partner is also a REALTOR® and is notoriously offline, so I have had a firsthand view of how some of the best professionals have not quite set themselves up for what is coming.

Ashley Smith: Consumer behaviour and AI search are changing. When people are spending meaningful money on services that may affect their lives, careers or financial circumstances, they do their homework—even when the introduction comes through a referral.

Think about business coaches, financial advisors, employers looking for talent or organizations considering board members. Across sectors, people want to know: What does this person actually know? How do they think? What evidence shows they can serve the purpose I have in mind?

The need has been developing for some time, but conversational AI is accelerating it. Google has described major changes to the search experience after decades of the familiar ranked page and ten blue links. Search systems want to provide the information a person actually needs, often through summaries and continuing questions rather than immediately sending them to a website.

At the same time, the barrier to publishing generic material has fallen to almost zero. Someone could generate a hundred “top ten” articles in a day. Search engines have to navigate that volume. They need real authority signals: experience, original insights, depth and evidence of thought.

Fast, generic AI content often reorganizes material already available on the internet. It does not necessarily add anything new.

Professionals making a transition are also competing with an emerging generation. They must show their voices, judgment and ways of thinking. But they do not need to become AI experts or conventional content creators to begin closing the Proof Gap—the difference between what they know and what appears online.

There are practical ways to address it, and the time to begin is now.

Ben Olmos: In my opinion, the time was yesterday. Social media, conventional search and AI are intersecting. Search systems understand quite a lot about a user’s location, interests and behaviour, and more people are engaging first with the AI-generated package of results.

Seven or eight years ago, I might have told someone to invest in Facebook rather than a website because that was where people looked. Now the website matters again. AI systems are looking at websites, articles and places such as Reddit in ways they may not be looking through closed or private social feeds. The game is always shifting.

Ashley Smith: That brings me back to your original question: how did my work become indexed by Google in three days?

First, notice my name: Ashley Smith. It is one of the most common names in the English-speaking world. I have always had a challenge making sure I am found correctly. There was even another Ashley Smith working in real estate in my market, so connecting the dots matters.

Podcasting helped Google connect my name to my thinking and the concept I was developing.

I recognize that someone who never wanted to post on Instagram or Facebook probably does not want to “start a podcast.” I try not to overemphasize that label. The practical point is that recording your voice and distributing it through an RSS feed can expedite the process of making your ideas and expertise indexable.

I did not anticipate the experiment working so quickly. Publishing and distributing audio through an RSS feed does not have to be difficult, even though operating and growing a polished podcast can be. The feed can send an episode to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon and other third-party platforms.

Those pages add useful structure and context: a title, description, date, identity and, increasingly, an AI-generated transcript. They also exist on established third-party platforms.

I published my short episodes through an RSS feed, and the material began appearing in a Google AI Overview connected to my name and topic within three days. It appeared before some of the material I had published on YouTube, which surprised me because Google owns YouTube.

My interpretation was that YouTube contains far more noise and a much lower publishing barrier, while a deliberate RSS feed creates structured data and generally requires at least a small amount of effort. There is also a real voice behind the conversation.

This does not mean social media lacks value. If someone already earns attention and awareness from a network, that is fantastic. I have also started seeing some of my public social posts cited in AI Overviews. But those posts need to be publicly accessible, and not everyone wants a public Facebook profile or an open social feed.

Ashley Smith: A professional can open Zoom and record a conversation with someone they can speak with comfortably: a business partner, an aligned professional or someone doing similar work in another market. A REALTOR® might speak with a mortgage broker, for example.

Once a week or twice a month, discuss what you have observed in the market, a recent change, a leadership lesson or something that demonstrates the expertise for which you want to be known. You do need to understand your intended themes, but the conversation itself can be casual.

Look through your email outbox. What questions have clients asked this week? What book did you read? What decision did you have to think through? Those are potential conversations.

Publish the recording. Do not initially worry about production, announcing the project to your network or chasing listeners. Put it somewhere Google, AI search systems and large language models can access, then connect it to a basic professional presence—perhaps a one-page website and your LinkedIn profile.

Entity clarity matters, particularly when you have a name such as Ashley Smith. AI systems should not have to guess whether two pieces of content refer to the same person.

Then use the transcript. Bring it into ChatGPT or Claude and ask for help creating a public article that preserves the useful points from the conversation. Those are your words and your ideas—not a generic list anyone could generate.

You do not need to do this every day. Publish meaningfully and with some cadence so the evidence remains relevant and recent. Even a couple of times a month can begin building a presence that represents your expertise more accurately and may eventually improve the likelihood of being recommended.

Ben Olmos: What you are describing is similar to what we have been doing. We publish a full transcript for each podcast, although I advise people to review automated transcripts because they do not capture everything correctly. I regularly have to correct the name DissedMedia.

Another barrier is perfection. My daughter is an actress, and I encourage her to publish. She might say something is not perfect, put it up and then take it down. I tell her to leave it up.

First, people have to move through the nerves: What will people think? Will they judge me? As long as you are not alienating or attacking people and are offering a genuine, helpful message, you are unlikely to go terribly wrong.

Second, the work will not be perfect. I have published hundreds of hours of content, and every new piece is better than the last. Finding your voice matters, but you should not expect to find it in your first video or conversation.

It may have taken me a year to settle on DissedMedia’s central mission: we help managers, leaders and entrepreneurs get better at what they do. Everything we create now supports that mission, but the language did not arrive immediately.

The hardest part is taking the first step. As you continue, you may want more from the work. You will notice how you speak, improve your production and begin refining the details. But you have to start somewhere.

Ashley Smith: I enjoy talking with people about personal branding and optimization, but what you are describing is the pattern I witnessed throughout my career. People may understand why something is valuable, but if they never begin, none of the strategy matters.

We have to remove enough friction to get the work moving. Even if someone does not promote a recording heavily, having it live online can still contribute to their public body of evidence.

Some people will resist because they do not want to call themselves podcast hosts or fear that the project will look like vanity. But if it gets them through the door, helps their career and begins demonstrating authority, that may be enough.

Ben Olmos: The argument that “everybody is doing it” has always bothered me. Why start any company when large competitors already exist? Why build Shake Shack when McDonald’s already has so much of the market? The existence of other people doing something is not a reason to avoid it.

Ashley Smith: Podcasting may be more popular, but that does not mean an overwhelming number of people are doing it creatively or effectively.

Start by shaping the three or four messages you want to be known for. Create a simple system for conversations. Open a laptop, record audio or video, use a script or speak freely. As you become more comfortable, you can improve production and polish if that serves you.

The next important step is often being platformed by other people.

After six months of documenting your ideas—or whenever you feel ready—you may become comfortable guesting on podcasts. A third party interviewing you about your expertise adds a different kind of authority. Search systems can see that someone else referenced, cited or presented you as a knowledgeable source.

That external evidence can be much more powerful than making the same claim entirely on your own channels. Once the podcast, video or attributed article is published, link it from your website so the relationship is explicit.

You do not have to announce that you are now a “media person.” The exercise helps you learn how to articulate your depth. Experienced professionals often already have extraordinary networks. They are asked to join panels, contribute to board discussions and share judgment in private rooms because people know they have something valuable to offer.

They are not starting as a 24-year-old trying to prove they know anything. They already possess the wisdom. The internet simply cannot see enough of it.

If audio or video is not for you, begin with case studies, client experiences or leadership decisions. Record a private voice note, create a rough transcript and use AI tools to help turn your own thinking into a polished written piece. The finished work should still reveal your perspective and experience.

Podcast-style conversations are my favourite approach, although that may be because I like to talk. There are many valid formats.

Ben Olmos: Enjoying conversation certainly helps. Earlier today, I was editing clips from a podcast appearance I made while promoting my book. It reminded me that I need to do more of them. I enjoy meeting people, learning about their worlds and getting my ideas in front of others.

I also think this medium can benefit younger people. My audience generally falls between 35 and 55 and skews more male than female, although the demographics shift depending on the guest. Knowing who you reach helps you recognize who may be missing.

Ben Olmos: Every year, young people graduate and struggle to find work. Imagine that instead of only submitting résumés, someone created a podcast about their field and interviewed people working in it. They would develop subject-matter knowledge and build connections. What might that do for their chances of entering the profession?

Ashley Smith: One hundred percent. I have this conversation regularly.

My work tends to focus on professionals who have been invisible for a long time, but there are two sides to this. The risk for the invisible expert is the opportunity for the emerging expert. A discoverability void exists because the person with the deepest knowledge is not showing up.

If you are new, associate yourself with expertise and build a network. Interview people. You do not have to pretend you already know everything.

Some of the people I work with are considering a five-year succession plan. They expected to sell a business or portfolio, but market conditions changed and they plan to stay longer. They may also realize the business is less valuable than anticipated because consumer behaviour has changed, inbound traction has declined and their reputation is not well represented online.

Those professionals could benefit from partnering with a younger entrepreneur or professional. The emerging person can help a mentor establish a public body of work, which may strengthen the business before an exit or help preserve the senior professional’s legacy. In return, the younger person gains access to extraordinary experience and builds credible associations.

The next generation is often more comfortable figuring out the technology. Setting up an RSS feed may feel intimidating to someone from a legacy profession, while a younger person may view it as an afternoon of research and experimentation.

They also learn along the way. Documenting a learning journey shows what someone cares about and where they are willing to go deeper. That is profoundly human, and I believe those signals become more important as generic AI material expands.

The emerging professional may also know how to turn a conversation into clips, social posts and other parts of a flywheel. There is a great deal of opportunity in that exchange.

Ben Olmos: If someone worries about mixing this with a personal social profile, they can start another channel. That is no longer difficult.

You also use the term Minimum Viable Proof. People may possess a great deal of knowledge but struggle to find the right voice. What is the smallest amount of credible evidence someone needs to begin?

Ashley Smith: To understand Minimum Viable Proof, put on your consumer hat.

If you are hiring someone or making a consequential purchase, what do you need to see? Most people will at least search the person. What must appear for you to feel confident that this is the right direction—or at minimum, that the person is worth calling or emailing?

What signals do you need as a buyer, client, partner or B2B decision-maker?

Minimum Viable Proof will differ by person, business and market. The easiest starting point is to reflect on what you would need, then turn around and search yourself.

What appears? Is the information specific, clear and explicit enough that Google or ChatGPT can summarize you accurately? Try asking an AI system about the kind of problem you solve: “Is this person worth calling? What are the pros and cons?” See what it says.

Minimum Viable Proof is dynamic. It will change with the professional, the business and consumer expectations. We cannot rely only on old practices or status-quo beliefs.

Ask yourself honestly: Would I trust me if I did not know me and looked myself up?

This matters especially when you are already known for something in real life. If people regularly come to you for a specific kind of help but no evidence of that expertise appears online, the gap is significant.

Real estate offers a straightforward example. Imagine someone handling the sale of a parent’s home after a death. It may involve difficult family dynamics, financial pressure, legal circumstances and a sensitive practical process.

Is that person simply looking for the REALTOR® who sells the most homes in the neighbourhood? Or do they need someone who understands the delicacy of an estate sale, knows what other professionals may need to be involved and has managed similar situations before?

If I needed that service, I would want evidence that this was not the agent’s first rodeo—even if they had already spent 15 years in the business.

Minimum Viable Proof asks what a prospective client needs to see and whether you are providing it.

Ben Olmos: I love that. I regularly tell people to Google their names. I have never loved the phrase “perception is reality,” but online perception does shape reality.

When someone searches your name or profession, what impression do the results create? Can your name even be connected to your profession in a meaningful way?

I recently searched for Ben Olmos and discovered a professional skateboarder with the same name. Fortunately, I have enough material online that he appears lower in my results.

Ashley Smith: Photos and identity signals matter too. If you meet someone at an event and they search you the next day, can they tell which result is you?

What happens after an in-person interaction? Does the search add confidence or doubt? Does the result clearly reinforce the things you discussed, or leave the person wondering whether this is even your primary field?

We research everybody. Professionals need to be more self-aware about how they appear during that due-diligence process.

Ben Olmos: Developing proof is not necessarily a volume game; it is also about quality. How can someone say the right things without feeling obligated to publish hundreds of hours of material?

Ashley Smith: The right cadence depends on the person’s goals. Search systems also do not update every source instantaneously.

When someone wants momentum, I often suggest a 90-day sprint: be highly intentional for a limited period, then decide on a sustainable cadence for adding new layers.

Some initial work is foundational. Does the website say the right things? Is important text embedded inside images rather than published as searchable text? Is the existing material even being found?

To begin establishing Minimum Viable Proof, release something useful once a week for three months. It does not require enormous engagement or elaborate production. Each item should add another layer to the few subjects for which you want to be known.

Afterward, move to a biweekly or monthly checkpoint if that is more sustainable. Keep monitoring how you appear in search and continue adding relevant evidence.

Timeliness matters. A strong article from two years ago may still be useful, but it may not carry the same relevance as an updated piece. Review it, add current nuance and republish it with an honest new date when appropriate.

For someone who wants to accelerate aggressively, more evidence may help. But most professionals do not need to obsess over going viral or keeping up with every social feed. They are not merely trying to manipulate a social-media algorithm.

If the objective is to be recommended by an AI system to someone who does not already know your name, the bar is much higher. That requires more than minimum proof—greater depth, more differentiation and a genuinely distinctive angle.

Ben Olmos: Going viral is like being struck by lightning. It is uncommon and difficult to engineer unless someone understands and deliberately embraces the architecture behind it.

Ashley Smith: I do not want to dismiss virality completely. People who are exceptional at social content may create those moments, but most professionals cannot plan around them.

The strategy I am describing uses different measures. You have succeeded when you know what you want to be known for, add a meaningful layer and maintain the commitment you chose. Publishing once a week can itself be the metric.

That gives people control and confidence. AI search changes the game because they do not necessarily have to compete for attention in the conventional way.

Imagine people increasingly using voice to ask an AI assistant, “I need a professional in this field—who should I call?” If you have no meaningful footprint, you cannot reasonably expect to appear in that kind of answer.

Building proof is somewhat like investing. The amount matters, but so do starting early and being consistent.

The takeaway is that you do not have to compete with people who are brilliant at content. You need to publish enough to show that you know your field.

Ben Olmos: A few years ago, I would have emphasized a strict video or podcast schedule because social algorithms rewarded frequency. Even that may be changing. Systems increasingly compare the substance of what you publish with everything else available.

The more you learn, the more you realize the environment will change again.

Ashley Smith: Exactly. For professionals who do not want to make media their full-time game, that constant change is one reason to remain clear about the objective.

If your goal is to create the best YouTube channel or podcast, platform best practices matter. If your goal is simply to become discoverable for what you are good at, that is a different objective.

Consistency means not abandoning the investment. Build a practical system. Once it works, an assistant or team member may be able to help with distribution and production.

Unlike community-oriented social media, this does not always require constant comments and high engagement. The work is closer to intentional indexing.

Ben Olmos: DissedMedia operates in a crowded business-content field, but I narrow the theme and the people we serve. I am not trying to become Forbes, The Wall Street Journal or Gary Vaynerchuk. I want to be excellent in my corner.

There are billions of people in the world. A focused voice can still be recognized and recommended. Craft the voice, develop the knowledge and begin publishing. Newness can even help attract attention.

Ashley Smith: A unique voice matters to humans. The people you want to reach care about your particular way of explaining something.

Distinctive angles also matter to AI systems. If you contribute an idea that has not previously been documented in that way, it may become a meaningful signal.

I adore Gary Vaynerchuk, but even as a fan, some days I do not have the energy for Gary Vee. I need someone else to explain the subject in the way I need at that moment. There is room for different styles and perspectives.

Ben Olmos: That is also why I distribute content in many places. Someone may watch a clip, eventually find the podcast, listen for a while, disappear and return months later.

Do not publish because you expect to become an influencer with everyone hanging on every word. Build a corner where you can become a trusted expert voice.

Ashley Smith: Find the lane in which you are comfortable beginning and see where you can take it.

This approach will not appeal to everybody, but professionals still need a way to remain visible and discoverable. In this era, continued invisibility will become a problem.

Ben Olmos: Ashley, you have a strong YouTube channel, useful content and a great website. Where can people find you?

Ashley Smith: I am active on social media, even though I say you do not have to be. My handle on most platforms is @ashleysmithnow, which is what I could make work with such a common name.

My personal website is ashleysmith.now. Listeners can also visit proofplaybook.com, which redirects to my current Show Your Proof site and resources.

The site connects to the Show Your Proof YouTube channel, newsletters, LinkedIn articles and material in several formats. It also includes a free Proof Gap Self-Assessment.

The assessment is designed to help someone take an honest look at where they stand today and what kinds of proof they are—or are not—making available. It is a practical starting point.

Ben Olmos: I love that journey because it reflects what we have tried to do through DissedMedia: be honest about where we started, what we have done and how it has grown. Over time, the effort compounds.

When you have another project to promote or more knowledge to share, I would love to have you back.

Ashley Smith: Thanks, Ben. I enjoyed this. It is fun to talk with someone who understands what is changing and is actively practising the work. I admire what you are doing, and I appreciate the conversation.

Ben Olmos: Practice is the key word. We try to take the ideas and messages we see and put them into practice. We will be sharing more about what we have learned, what we do and how we do it.

Ashley, thank you again for your time and wisdom. I encourage everybody to explore Ashley’s work. It is thoughtful, polished and very well branded.

Topics: the Proof Gap, Minimum Viable Proof, invisible experts, AI search, professional visibility, online reputation, career transition, succession, podcasting, podcast guesting, third-party authority, answer engine optimization, generative engine optimization, searchable expertise.